Better Read Book Fest Special Season: Natasha Page, author of Believe You’re Made for More

[00:00:00] Gabrielle: Welcome to Natasha Page. Very excited to speak with Natasha. Natasha is author of Believe You’re Made for More, Seven Steps to Transform Low Self-Esteem. And Natasha, of course, will be speaking at BetterRead Book Fest on the 3rd of October in Abergavenny. Welcome, Natasha.

[00:00:18] Natasha: Hello. Hello. Thank you for inviting me today.

I’m really excited to talk to you.

[00:00:23] Gabrielle: Oh, I’m really excited to get stuck in. Um, can you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself, please?

[00:00:30] Natasha: Okay. Yeah, so as you, you just introduced me, I’m Natasha Page. I’m a psychotherapist and also a self-development coach and the author of Believe You’re Made for More, and I work in my own private practice.

Um, and I also, uh, run projects to support women with their self-esteem

[00:00:51] Gabrielle: Fab. Great. That’s… We definitely wanna be talking with you. So in the book you mention your own relationship with self-esteem and the struggles you’ve had in your experiences, and as I was reading it, it felt quite, quite a personal book.

I felt like I was really sort of getting an insight into, into you as well as, you know, all the wisdom that you have to share from your, your experience and your training. And I wondered, you know, what is, what is it that made you want to write the book? Is it the, that personal story that you wanted to weave into it?

[00:01:21] Natasha: Yeah. Yes, and that was actually really scary, sharing, you know, parts of my own life, to be honest. But I feel like it’s really important when you’re talking on a subject. I didn’t want this to be a book that was an academic book. It was very much I wanted it to, it to connect with people, and I think sharing your personal experiences gives that.

It helps people to see you as, um, someone who’s, who’s living it as well as, uh, working with people as a professional. So obviously as a therapist, I work with self-esteem a lot. It’s, uh, something that arises a lot in the therapy room. But I really felt it was important to share that, yeah, that side of it, my own journey, because I feel like without my own work and my own self-esteem, my life’s journey would probably be very different, and I just feel really, I guess, inspired to help other people out there who may struggle with self-worth, uh, to, to work on that and to see that actually, you know, this isn’t something that has to impact on your life and, uh, that it can, it can be turned round into a positive.

[00:02:32] Gabrielle: Yeah. And you mentioned that it was really scary to include your own kind of story and experiences in there. And, you know, having written a book myself, I know how scary it is to have, to have written a book and then put it out in the world, because then it’s not yours anymore. Yes. It then belongs to the reader, and you just don’t have any control over what people will think of it or make of it or say about it.

Yes. And so when you add in the fact that, yeah, you’ve got your personal story in there as well- How, how did that feel, and how have you been dealing with the fact that that’s it, your book is out there in the world?

[00:03:07] Natasha: Yeah, so I think that in itself has been a part of my own self-esteem journey in that letting go of what other people think and just owning who I am.

And, you know, that doesn’t always come easily to me. Obviously, I talk about, um, I’m writing about the subject of self-esteem ’cause it’s something I’ve battled with, um, for a long time. But I really am at a point now in my life where I, I, I kind of, I don’t care, you know? This is who I am, and I really stand grounded in the fact that I’ve done this.

I’ve wrote this book because I want to make a difference and I want to help people. So I think anything that’s done from the heart can never be wrong, you know? So if, if people don’t like that, then that’s fine. They don’t need to read it or like me. Um, it’s for the people that I want to support, and that’s what’s most important to me.

[00:04:00] Gabrielle: Oh, I love that, Natasha, and this is why, this is why I wanted to speak with you. This is why I wanted you at the festival because that idea of, of being okay with somebody who likes or doesn’t like something, and it being absolutely fine with you, is what I think so many of us struggle with. We just find it so hard to be okay with that.

And so I wondered, like, yeah, from not just your personal experience, but from your professional point of view- What is the impact of low self-esteem? You know, why, why does self-esteem matter? What does it do for us? And therefore, what is the impact of having little or low self-esteem?

[00:04:40] Natasha: Yes. So I think for me as a therapist, I see this, you know, manifesting so many different ways for my clients.

But often the most, uh, common themes that I see are relationships. So just as one example, you know, people settling for less in their relationships, whether that be romantically or whether that’s in friendships, you know, tolerating things, behaviors, and things that perhaps they don’t really feel comfortable with or aligned with, uh, but they just sort of put up with it.

And you know, I talk about this in the book, I’ve got my own experiences with this. I, I was married at a very young age and then, you know, as a more mature adult now, I look back and I know that actually the, the root of that was s- because of low self-esteem, you know, because perhaps not feeling like anyone else would love me or accept me.

So I definitely see that in the therapy room. It comes up in the workplace. You know, it may be that people don’t feel they can express themselves, uh, in the workplace. They may feel nervous about, you know, approaching, um, a p- a pay rise or, like, going for a different job role because they don’t feel good enough, and it can just really hold people back in all areas of their life.

And I think the, the, the most saddest thing about low self-esteem is, you know, just not feeling happy, content within yourself. Like that’s, that’s one of the biggest, um, things that people struggle with. And of course, I support clients with this in therapy, and it’s just so lovely when I see a shift in people’s perception of themselves and how much thing- their life can change as a result

[00:06:25] Gabrielle: And what you’ve described is essentially it, it’s everything, isn’t it?

So if it’s relationships, that’s everything, because we have a relationship with everybody, whether it be a partner and family, or it be your neighbors, or your boss and your work colleagues, and the people on the street. I mean, y- yeah, you have some sort of relationship with everybody. And then like

[00:06:46] Natasha: I said, if you don’t- And of course yourself, you know?

The biggest one is-

[00:06:47] Gabrielle: Yes … it

[00:06:47] Natasha: starts with the relationship with yourself,

[00:06:50] Gabrielle: doesn’t it? So, yeah. Yeah. And if you aren’t… Yeah, if you, if you want having a good relationship with yourself, then how can you… Yeah, that knocks onto everything. So how can you then go for the job that is going to make you happy and perhaps will pay you the salary that you need to live well and to have, you know, the, the security and the home you want and…

So it’s actually huge, isn’t it, self-esteem?

[00:07:15] Natasha: Yeah. Yeah, it can affect your aspirations in life, you know? And of course, we all have different goals and aspirations and things that we may want to achieve, but if you’ve got low self-esteem, then yours may… You know, you may not have, I guess, that aspiration for yourself to, to be more or to do more, which is why I use the book title Believe You’re Made for More, because it’s about that belief that actually there, there can be more for you, whatever that is.

And I guess this was also… the book was rooted in my own journey of, you know, coming from a very working class background and, you know, living in areas of poverty when I, I was growing up. Now, don’t get me wrong, you know, uh, my parents worked hard, and I, I didn’t feel like I went without as a child. But what I’m trying to say is that from living in those areas, you know, you are around people that perhaps don’t have, you know, high aspirations for themselves.

Don’t think that they can perhaps, you know, achieve a, a certain career or income that they may desire, but they just don’t feel it’s, it’s possible for them. And so this is why I wanted to write the book, because I wanted to speak to those people who just feel held back wherever you are a- a, you know, at, at your point in life.

Um, you will know how self-esteem may be impacting on you or, or maybe you won’t actually, ’cause that’s the point, is that sometimes we don’t realize how much that is sort of feeding into all areas of our life. So, uh, again, that’s another reason I wanted to write the book, to help people reflect on that.

[00:08:46] Gabrielle: Yeah. And I think, I think that’s a really interesting point because as I was reading the book, I was thinking, I wonder how many people know that they have low self-esteem or, you know, or how it is affecting them. And in the book, you mentioned several kind of common avoidance behaviors and coping mechanisms.

There’s social withdrawal, perfectionism, self-deprecation, procrastination, putting up emotional defenses- How, how do you see those as kind of manifesting, and how much do you think people are aware of, of really the big impact that that’s, that they’re having on them?

[00:09:25] Natasha: Yes. Well, I, I think often from my experience working with clients in therapy, often people aren’t always that aware of them until we start to unpick that in therapy and start to realize the connection between how they view themselves and then the actions that they’re, you know, how they’re showing up in the world.

And, and this again, was a very personal journey for me. You know, it wasn’t until I attended therapy in my early 20s when I was going through a period of depression, that was the first time I’d come across a therapist. I talk about this in the book. I didn’t even really know what therapy was at the time.

Um, but from that experience, working through the, the sessions and it was a therapist who suggested that, “Oh, maybe some of the things you’re talking about are actually, you know, low self-esteem.” And I was like, “Yes.” That, that actually really started to make sense, and I started to realize, yes, it is. I, I wasn’t feeling good enough.

I wasn’t feeling worthy, and that was, yeah, having such a massive impact. So I think often we’re, we’re not always aware of this, so it definitely, you know, wanted to get that across in the book, the different ways that it can, can impact on people, ’cause it’s sneaky and we don’t always realize.

[00:10:41] Gabrielle: Yeah. So that, yeah, can you tell us a bit more about the, the sneakiness of it?

[00:10:45] Natasha: Yeah. So I think just, like, on a day-to-day basis, we may not really think about it much, but as you pointed out, some of the, the themes in the book, you know, like, uh, self-deprecating humor, you know, putting yourself down, you know, that often is just a way of, like, protecting yourself. It’s a way of perhaps stopping people from, you know, maybe you’re worried that people think that about you, so if you say it first and own it, it can help you to feel safer in that.

Uh, that’s just this one example. It may be people pleasing, you know, trying to do everything right for, for example, in your relationships, um, you know, if, if you’ve got a family, a, a partner, you may go above and beyond to sort of look after their needs and not look after your own needs. So ignoring perhaps the things that, that you need or doing things to the point of burnout, um, because you’re worried that, you know, you’re not enough.

You’re kind of trying to compensate for that feeling of lack inside yourself by showing everyone that you are worthy and that, y- you know, you can do everything for them. So yeah, th- these are the ways that I, I see it turn up in, in the clients that I work with in therapy.

[00:11:59] Gabrielle: Mm. I think there are going to be some bells ringing with listeners listening to this.

Um, I think, yeah, the self-deprecating humor, that’s thing … You, you can think, “Oh, well, I’m r- you know, I’m, I’m a funny person because I make people laugh.” But actually if, if people are laughing at you saying not great things about yourself, that’s not great in itself. No. And I think that, yeah, that can come from that sort of

If you’ve been criticized for a long time for various things, you, you wanna get in there first with that criticism. Before they can say it about you, you say it about you, and then somehow that’s gonna be okay.

[00:12:37] Natasha: Yeah.

[00:12:37] Gabrielle: But it’s not, is it? It’s actually just- No … perpetuating it.

[00:12:42] Natasha: It is, yes. And so that is one of the things that I work on with clients in therapy, is helping them to become more aware, and it is one of the steps in the book, is raising that awareness, amplifying your awareness, i- is the chapter in the book.

And that talks about, you know, really tuning into when you may be doing that, when l- low self-esteem may be actually at the heart of your actions in life. So that’s one example, the self-deprecating humor. But like we said, it may come out in people-pleasing, it may be not taking care of yourself. It may be, you know, not eating healthily.

It may not be allowing yourself time to exercise because you’ve not got time, because you’re too busy, but actually that’s not prioritizing yourself. So yeah, these are some of the things that I unpick with clients in therapy and, of course, in the book we get time to explore this as well, how it may be showing up for individuals in, in their own lives.

[00:13:39] Gabrielle: Yeah. I think, I think all those that you’ve just mentioned, absolutely bells will be ringing with listeners, along with the perfectionism and the procrastination that you mention in the book. There’s a line in the book that really stuck with me that I’m just gonna read out, which is, “The thing about low self-esteem is that you don’t want to deviate from the norm, and so you lose a sense of your own identity.”

That really struck me, because I thought that is a sentence that a lot of women who have gone through most of their lives, you know, into their 40s or 50s or 60s or beyond, not aware of their ADHD or their neurodivergence. That is, that is a sentence that is- Mm-hmm … gonna hit home with them. So I’m curious, how do you see the relationship, relation- mm, relationship between neurodivergence in particular and self-esteem?

[00:14:35] Natasha: Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, fi- first of all, quite nice to hear that fed back to me, ’cause it’s actually resonated with myself in a different way there, because y- you know, I think- Often what we tend to do, especially as neurodivergent people, and I- I’m one, I’m dyslexic and potentially other things that I don’t know yet.

Um, so I, I, you know, I’m dyslexic, and I know that often I have parts of my life not felt good enough because perhaps, you know, I don’t feel capable of, of doing things to the as high standard as other people or, you know, when I’m talking sometimes my words may get muddled, or I lose my train of thoughts.

And so those things once would have had an impact on, like, how I showed up in the world. And I think so many people with neurodivergence, um, whatever that form that comes in for them, you know, do have this feeling of not quite being good enough and not quite making the grade because we may think about things in a different way or do things in a different way.

But, you know, it really is important to me that I did talk about this in the book because, again, it’s m- it’s normalizing it. It’s, it’s just putting it out there. And it’s also, for me, a testament, you know, writing this book, especially as a dys- dyslexic person, um, who has always loved English at school, um, but yes, I did have struggles sometimes with, like, spelling when I was a, a younger child.

Um, it was, for me, writing this book was actually testament to the message that I’m trying to get out in the world that, you know, believing in yourself is the key to everything. And you can overcome even if you have these struggles internally, you can overcome them, and actually, they can become your fuel as well, I think.

Certainly for me, they have become my fuel to pushing myself out of my comfort zone. And, uh, yeah, I, I really hope that- That my own journey can be an inspiration to other people as well.

[00:16:46] Gabrielle: Hmm. Yeah, I like the idea of using them as fuel, and I think that can speak to that sort of rebellious part that many of us have where, you know, we just think, “Well, I’m just, I’m just not gonna do that,” or, “Because you’ve said that I’m gonna prove you wrong.”

Or, you know- Yes … and we kind of, we go way in the opposite direction. And so to kind of harness that and use it for our own benefit-

[00:17:10] Natasha: Yes …

[00:17:10] Gabrielle: would be rather nice, wouldn’t it?

[00:17:12] Natasha: Yes. Yeah, 100%. So I would encourage anyone out there who’s listening to this who’s having some little light bulb moments to, to do that.

You know, whatever that is

for you. As in, say, it may not be writing a book, it may be doing something else that you’ve always wanted to do but you felt like you weren’t good enough or that you couldn’t do it. You know, only you can decide that. No one else can tell you that you’re good enough. That has to come internally, and, and that’s the message of the book, is that- Mm

actually it’s not about other people, it’s about your relationship with yourself. And, um, you know, I d- I think sometimes, like, people don’t always understand the importance of self-esteem, but it really … You know, at its worst it can make people feel like they’re not worth, you know, being here on this planet, and that’s one of the saddest things, obviously, that I witness in therapy, is when people feel that low about themselves, that it starts to impact on, you know, their mood in that way.

And so yes, just really, as we’re talking, just thinking, like, anyone who’s listening to this, if there’s anything that is resonating, like, don’t struggle with this on your own. It’s not a, a silly thing to take to therapy. It’s a very important theme to work through in therapy, and I’d encourage anyone to, you know, seek a qualified therapist, um, if, if anything h- here does resonate and they’ve not yet worked on this.

[00:18:42] Gabrielle: Yeah. And I think that, I think that’s a really good point that, you know, self-esteem is not, is not one of those kind of fluffy nice to have things. It matters. And as we’ve already- Yes … talked about, the, the far-reaching impact of it, whether, you know, be lack of, of it or, you know, or having good self-esteem, that impact can just reach every single part of your life.

So yeah, it is not a, it is not a just a fluffy nice to have. So I’m wondering if just in your … Obviously, you can only speak to your experience and your practice as a therapist. Have you … Are you kind of noticing or are you aware that there are more neurodivergent people with low self-esteem than neurotypical?

Is that something you’ve been able to observe or is that not something that’s really cropped up for you?

[00:19:32] Natasha: I feel like it, it is. Obviously, sometimes I’m working with clients and we may not know if they’re neurodivergent, e.g. they may not have had an official diagnosis, so that’s not always … uh, there’s not a straight sort of answer to that, but there definitely is a correlation between the two.

You know, I do work with people who, um, may b- be on the autistic spectrum or who have got ADHD and, you know, their, their struggles are unique of course to them. But definitely I do think it, it’s … there is a, a connection there between the two.

[00:20:05] Gabrielle: Mm. That’s really interesting. And it … Yeah, it feels like … It makes sense to me as a, as an ADHD coach, as an, as an ADHD myself.

It … That feels like it would be true. So is how you support somebody who’s neurodivergent with low self-esteem different to how you would support somebody who’s neurotypical with low self-esteem?

[00:20:25] Natasha: Yeah. So, so what I, what I would like to, I guess, stress as a therapist is I work with everybody as a unique individual and it’s, you know, neurodivergence, again, it’s

Because people are, you know, on a, a spectrum, you can’t assume that it affects someone in a, a 100% linear, like, way, you know? It’s just so individual. So with any person that I work with, non neurodivergent or, you know,

neurodivergent , uh, I work with the individual to help them understand, you know, how it may be impacting on them, um, and not taking that for a guess, you know, ’cause, ’cause one client struggles with something that another client may struggle with, with this in the same way. So it really is you working with the, the person as a unique person and, um, and listening to their own story and their own experiences

[00:21:28] Gabrielle: I love that.

I love that because I’m forever saying to people, when you’ve met one person with ADHD or autism or another neurodivergence, you’ve only met one person with ADHD or autism or another neurodivergence. Yeah. And I think that, that what has caused us to get into… Well, one of the many things that’s caused us to get into the situation where, you know, we are now sort of beginning to recognize and come out of, whereby we had very s- narrow views of what a person with ADHD looked like.

It was the fidgety boy in class. What the person with autism looks like. It was the little boy who loves trains in class. You know, it… That, having such narrow view is why we’re in the kind of pickle we are now, whereby there’s an awful lot of people who are saying, “Actually, wait a minute, I think this is me, and I need some support.”

And the systems are not coping with it. Yes. And there are people kind of, you know, arguing back against it and saying it’s a fad and it’s a fashion, all of that nonsense. But it’s because it’s all started with this very narrow view. Mm. And so having that person-centered approach of, you are the person in front of me, you’re the person that, that is here wanting to work with me and I’m wanting to work with you, and together we will figure out your exact blend and what is the best support for you.

I mean, that’s the approach that we just need in s- so many areas of life, isn’t it?

[00:22:47] Natasha: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. So yeah, that’s definitely what my approach is in therapy, is always like the individual, and as you just used the words there, person-centered 100%.

[00:23:00] Gabrielle: Yeah. Love it. Uh, just to bring it back to the book a moment.

So you mentioned one of the steps. So in the book, there are seven steps broken down nice and neatly. Could you briefly take us through those seven steps to, uh-

[00:23:15] Natasha: Yes …

[00:23:16] Gabrielle: as you say, to your higher self?

[00:23:18] Natasha: Yes. Yeah. So, um, step one is, um, your narrative I’m gonna, I’m gonna forget them ’cause I haven’t got the book in front of me I’ll tell you what.

I’ll tell you what- So could you- I’ve got the book

[00:23:30] Gabrielle: in front of me. Yes, go.

[00:23:31] Natasha: Okay.

[00:23:33] Gabrielle: Number one,

[00:23:33] Natasha: number one, amplify your awareness ‘Cause I don’t, ’cause I think it is your narrative, that’s why I just touched them- That’s number two … and I’m going, “Yeah.” I

[00:23:38] Gabrielle: have just put

[00:23:39] Natasha: you on the spot. You see, you know why it is- I didn’t give you any warning

you know why it is? Because actually when I was writing the book, your narrative was always going to be the first step, but my publisher decided that we should have amplify your awareness as your first step, so that’s why that’s just got in.

[00:23:55] Gabrielle: I’ve also put you on the spot, and you don’t have your book with you.

So I will read that. So the first one is amplify your awareness.

[00:24:01] Natasha: Yes. Yes. So that was, as I pointed out earlier, it’s all about raising your awareness of how low self-esteem may be impacting you and showing in your life.

[00:24:11] Gabrielle: Right. So cons- yeah, you can’t do anything without having an awareness in the first place, can you?

[00:24:14] Natasha: Yeah.

[00:24:15] Gabrielle: Number two, understand your narrative.

[00:24:18] Natasha: So this is all about where your s- old stories may have come from. So for example, you know, I was bullied in childhood, and that had a massive impact on me going into my teen years and then into later life. So it’s about helping the individual explore what stories they may have been telling themselves

[00:24:38] Gabrielle: Which is so powerful because that’s where, that’s where we realize we’ve taken on stuff that wasn’t ever true or isn’t ours, but is other people, other people have given us.

Um, so then that leads into number three, reject old stories.

[00:24:53] Natasha: Yeah. So as it says on the tin, it’s about learning how we can start to shed those old stories and stop listening to them, basically. Start, stop letting those old stories be in, in control of, of our lives and, you know, um, that’s what the, the chapter helps us to think about how we can start to work through not living in that old narrative that we may have told ourselves.

[00:25:18] Gabrielle: Yeah. Enormously powerful. Uh, then we have step four, become your authentic self.

[00:25:25] Natasha: Yeah, so again, it says what it does on the tin. This is… And, you know, I think authenticity is, the word is often used a lot, but it is about really connecting with who you are and not being afraid of that. So there’s a lovely exercise in that chapter called vitals, where it helps you to think about your values, sort of just your, who you are as a person, you know, what your natural biorhythms are, and just, uh, accepting that actually this is who you are, and that’s okay.

[00:25:56] Gabrielle: Mm. Number five, develop your self-acceptance.

[00:26:01] Natasha: Yeah, so this is something that I think people can really struggle with, is accepting themselves for who they are. So in this chapter we delve into how we can start to, like, I guess, appreciate those things about ourselves that maybe we do struggle with, maybe we haven’t always liked, but how we can get past sort of letting those, again, control and dictate how we feel about ourselves.

[00:26:26] Gabrielle: Yeah. And I think that that- You know, it makes such perfect sense how, obviously, how you have ordered the chapters and the steps because that self-acceptance piece is hard to do, and it’s… You can’t do it without having done the other stuff before because-

[00:26:42] Natasha: Yeah …

[00:26:42] Gabrielle: if you’re still carrying around those old stories that other people gave you, how on earth can you be accepting of yourself?

Because you’re trying to accept things that you’ve been told aren’t true about you or, you know, were kind of, you know, weighty things that were given to you that don’t belong with you and-

[00:26:57] Natasha: Yeah.

[00:26:58] Gabrielle: Yeah. Mm. Uh, number six, embrace progression.

[00:27:02] Natasha: Yeah, so I love this chapter because this is the chapter where I, I encourage people to try new things and to, you know, to, I guess, start to live the life that they really want to live.

And what I mean by that is often with low self-esteem, like we talked about earlier on, we’re holding ourselves back from doing things. We’re scared to get things wrong, so it may stop us in our tracks, and it’s really about helping us to try new things, whether that’s a really small thing like, you know, I don’t know, a new nail polish color, um, or a, a bigger thing like jumping out of a plane.

Um, it’s about, yeah, getting you to think about actually, you know, what would I be doing if I didn’t care what people thought? What would I be doing if I had a better relationship with myself? If I allowed myself to have more joy and fun and happiness in my life, then what would that look like?

[00:27:51] Gabrielle: Hmm. You could end up writing a book.

[00:27:55] Natasha: Yes. Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:58] Gabrielle: And number seven of the seven steps to your higher self is awaken the higher self.

[00:28:04] Natasha: Yeah, so in this part I talk a lot about… Not a lot, I talk about sort of spirituality and how tapping into that side of us can also aid our self-esteem. And, you know, this isn’t about being religious or, like, following a certain religion or practice, it’s just about getting you to tap into whatever spirituality is for you.

So that can be very different for all of us. You know, I share in the book some of the things that I connect with. Um, it may be things like walking in nature, it may be things like sitting near the sea, that’s one of my favorite things to do, and just looking at the horizon. And so in that chapter, I’m encouraging people to develop their spiritual practice and tap into that part of themselves, because I feel that that has a big link with our self-esteem as well.

And, um, yeah, I guess being connected to a bigger source, something that’s bigger than us is a, a big part of my, uh, journey as well, so that’s why that’s in the book.

[00:29:08] Gabrielle: Hmm. Thank you for taking us through those seven steps. I love the book. I just think that it’s, you know, it’s, it’s really important and really powerful to have this book out in the world to help people, because, you know, as we have discussed, self-esteem can be a bit overlooked and not taken that seriously, but it’s actually really important and has a big impact on you.

And your book- takes people through those seven steps. You know, you’re holding their hand as they are understanding themselves better and able to develop their self-esteem so that, yeah, you can, you can live your life much more in the way that you want to. That will not only make you happier, but also affect, like you said, the relationships and, you know, maybe do the things that you’ve always wanted to do, dreams that you wanted to pursue, the job that you wanted to have, all of, all of those things.

So yeah, it’s- Yes … it’s fantastic. And it’s we could talk for ages about it, but there is the festival, which we’ll get to speak more- Yes … there.

[00:30:08] Natasha: Can’t wait.

[00:30:09] Gabrielle: Um, so yeah, you’re going to be, um, in conversation with, uh, Natalie Lue, who’s written- Yes … The Joy of Saying No, and with Toni Jones of The Shelf Help Club.

So I’m, yeah, really looking forward to that. Yeah, can’t wait. And I would love to know, Natasha, before we go, um, what are you looking forward to about the BetterRead Book Fest?

[00:30:29] Natasha: So I’m, I’m looking forward to being part of this brand-new festival. I think it’s amazing, because I’ve got a sneaky suspicion that this is going to become one of the biggest festi- festivals in England.

So I’m really excited to be part of this first one, and I can’t wait to connect with loads of like-minded people and wonderful authors and, um, and meet you in person as well. I can’t wait for that.

[00:30:57] Gabrielle: Yeah. I can’t wait to meet you in person too, and I’m, I’m gonna try to feel encouraged rather than have he- heart palpitations at the thought of it becoming the biggest festival.

Ooh. But it’s, I, yeah, I think it’s gonna be a lovely, lovely day, and I’m really excited that you’re part of it. So aside from speaking at BetterRead Book Fest, um, where else can listeners find and connect with you?

[00:31:21] Natasha: So people can find me at my website, which is www.natashapage… Sorry, my voice has gone croaky.

natashapagemsc.com. And I am over on the good old social medias as natashapagemsc as well. So connect with me there. And of course, do, if you’ve enjoyed this conversation today and anything sort of resonated, then, yeah, do find my book as well, Believe You’re Made For More. Give that a read as well, and, uh, connect with me in that way.

[00:31:52] Gabrielle: Absolutely. I heartily recommend the book, of course. Thank you so much for, uh, for chatting with me, Natasha. Thank you. It’s been really enjoyable, and I’m looking forward to seeing you in October.

[00:32:02] Natasha: Yes, you too.